Last week Salon published an article about Mars Hill, a deeply conservative evangelical church that has taken off in a huge way here in typically-liberal Seattle. Part of how the church has been so successful is that it’s welcoming to hipsters and indie rockers and other non-traditional religious types. I’d heard rumors of the church’s conservatism, but reading the article gave me chills. I had no idea it was so anti-feminist.
Mortified by the article, two girlfriends and I discussed going to check out the church. We wanted to explore how such a conservative church is able to gain such a foothold (5000 people!) in a liberal, egalitarian city like Seattle. Without giving ourselves a chance to chicken out, Ariel (my evil twin), Dawn and I decided we would go this last weekend. To the 7pm Sunday service! No backing out.
Ariel and I dressed demurely, in inadvertently-matching conservative brown skirts and boots. Dawn, meanwhile, decided to celebrate the fact that she spent 15 years as a deeply dedicated born-again Christian, and she pulled out all the stops and wore a black miniskirt, thigh-high black stockings, and black platform boots. It was deliciously scandalous.
As the three of us drove to the church, we each confessed (ha!) to being deeply nervous — scared even. The Salon article profiled a woman who used to manage bands and tour around the world. She’d gone to a Mars Hill sermon, broken down sobbing, and converted immediately afterward. What if something like that happened to us? Should we wear our tinfoil hats? What if we were somehow brainwashed and converted? Was Mars Hill really going to be that seductive?
As we approached the church (which looks like a big club — it’s almost like a warehouse space), we first noticed that the church-goers weren’t as hip as everyone had made them out to be. A lot of them looked pretty normal and all-American — but the crowd was way, way younger than your average church service. We saw a few more tattooed hipster types once inside, but the church was hardly filled with Betty Page-banged mamas and indie rocker helmeted boys.
We walked into the main chapel and — whoa. It felt like a big theater or club. Super stylish lighting hung from the ceiling. A half-dozen enormous flat panel monitors were suspended all over the place. The coloring was impeccably stylish and well-designed. I tried to put my finger one what I was being reminded of … the brushed stainless steel san-serif signs, the matching soap dispensers … what is it? Wait a minute. Holy fuck, the church reminded me of a dotcom! Dare I say, a Godcom? This church, after all, has podcasts and a blogging pastor. It is totally tech-savvy and totally moderne. It felt like Amazon crossed with a nightclub, but with a big stylized cross on the wall.
Eventually, it was time for the show — I’m sorry, service to begin. A band came out and started playing a heavy, indie rockish melody as the lyrics appeared on the big screen monitors. But what was really remarkable to me was the sound system, which had seriously booming bass. This was not a rinky-dink set-up. This was a system to rival most clubs. Weird. Where did all this money come from if the church-goers are all so young?
After some singing about the blood of Christ (complete with lyrics displayed on a blood-splattered background on the overhead monitors), the charismatic 35-year-old leader of the church came out to speak. Evidently, “Pastor Mark” has been teaching The Corinthians for most of the year, and he was down to some of the last lines of the section. The topics addressed in the sermon were: 1. Speaking in tongues 2. Prophesies 3. Women in church. And basically the summary was: 1. Only a one person at a time should speak in tongues, someone should translate, and never more than two or three tonguers total. 2. Prophesies should be made carefully so that nut-jobs don’t make everyone else look stupid. 3. Women shouldn’t speak in church and if they behave poorly their husbands are accountable.
This was where it got deeply weird. The pastor read from the bible, and then explained that it didn’t mean God-fearing women shouldn’t speak — really, the passage only applied to “feminist women with an agenda.” He went on for quite some time about how awful feminism is — it’s not worth recounting, other than the part where he said “Women say they want to be treated like men, but then when we actually treat them like men they cry.” Everyone laughed. It was awful.
He went on to talk about how wives should relate to their husbands. He made some weird allusions to theology and sex, basically saying that if a woman has a question about the bible, she should ask her husband for answers, and husbands: you better know your bible cuz otherwise your wife is going to go elsewhere to get her theological satisfaction from someone else, and you don’t want that! He also mentioned “theological foreplay,” which included talking about the bible in bed with his wife and kissing her on the forehead. It was really bizarre. He briefly mentioned his critics, and said he didn’t have time to argue with them because “I’m too busy loving my wife.”
Dawn and the other Ariel will attest to the fact that I spent most of the service with my mouth literally hanging open. Here, in this deeply stylish club-like room, with its bistro lighting and young, educated parishioners, was a pastor espousing some of the most conservative regressive gender theory I’d ever heard, and everyone was eating it up. Why? Because the packaging is so dang slick and stylish. And Pastor Mark is a great public speaker.
I obviously don’t have much to compare the experience to, having been raised a Buddhist/pagan and grown into an agnostic. So thank goodness for Dawn, who could provide a great perspective on how Mars Hill compares to the many many churches she’s attended. Her summary? The sermon was basically the same old shit, but the church and the packaging was unlike anything she’d ever seen. She also stared down one of the hot young men who was holding the wine for communion. Ha!
Anyway, if perhaps we’d slipped in relatively unnoticed, by the end of the service I’m pretty confident that the people sitting around us knew we were the “feminists with an agenda” that Pastor Mark was warning them about. We couldn’t stop whispering back and forth in astonishment, and Dawn at one point caught me with my hand over my open mouth and a look of total horror on my face. I didn’t feel bad, though — we were just embodying the very thing the church was rallying against, and so it was probably nice for the parishioners to have an example of everything that’s wrong with feminist women right there in front of them.
Afterwards, as the three of us hunkered over Thai food to try to get the taste of Jesus cum off our tongues, we heaved a collective sigh of relief. There was no risk of being sucked in. It was fascinating for me to see — I’m no theologian, but I do love my social-psychology and sociological perspectives. And I related to the psychological drive for structure and community and focus — we all seek those things. But I’m firm in my faith that Mars Hill isn’t hiding the answers. I’ll take my community and focus from the forest dance floors and camping trips and long rambling conversations with loved ones. No tinfoil hat necessary — the pastor’s terrifyingly literal interpretation of the bible was all the deterrence I need. I’m really glad I went, however. I think it’s too easy to just dismiss someone without witnessing what they’re doing first-hand. And I did gain some insight into why Seattleites are flocking to this church. It’s a stylish place with a compelling leader who confidently offers his guidance. If you were young and hungry for some structure and a place to belong, Mars Hill would be deeply, dangerously seductive.
In doing some follow-up research today, I found this blog post by a former Mars Hill devotee. I really appreciated the level-headed and fair discussion of the values of Mars Hill, as well as the critical perspectives on why the writer ultimately left the church. It’s a good reminder that there are plenty of Christians out there who are free-thinking, loving, smart people.
Related links:
Dawn posts her thoughts.
The other Ariel posts her’s.
The SLOG readers weigh in.
Hey there. I'm Ariel Meadow Stallings, a native Seattleite who's written my way up and down the Left Coast. Electrolicious is where I post daily randomata, but I also write for a living. My first book, Offbeat Bride, was published last year.
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Devin
September 18th, 2006 at 10:30 pm
Oy vey. If you want a more realistic view of how traditional Christianity views sex/marriage/etc check out the papal encyclical Humane Vitae, and the later work, Theology of the Body by the late Pope John Paul II. They’re fascinating reads even if you disagree their views. At least, that’s what one of my more philosphical minded atheist friends said. =) There’s a new translation of Theology of the Body coming out soon supposedly that is apparently a much better read than the previous editions.
In my view, to view a woman as merely a baby producing machine lessens her as a person. In some ways it’s just as making her into an object. It’s kind of odd to see people who point to pornography as objectifying women and then they turn around do the same thing from a different angle.
ONe thing to keep in mind, as popular as Mars Hill might be in Seattle, Protestant Christendom in general actually comprises the minority viewpoint. The Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches combined are close to 2 billion people. It’d be interesting to hear your viewpoint on how they interpret things. The two articles I mentioned are heavy reads, but they’re also freely available online. Another interesting read relating to Christian views on marriage, sex, and love would likey be Pope Benedict’s first encyclical, Deus Caritas Est. It’s kinda odd, but cool to have a pope who quotes Nietzische in his writings.
Okay, enough of my disjointed babbling. I fear I’ve made a big enough fool of myself for one night.
Sara
September 18th, 2006 at 11:44 pm
This post = reason # 28385756362561515968302 that I stay the fuck away from organized religion. Even if it has pretty lights and a booming bass.
Very, very well-written — and kudos to you gals for braving that torture.
Josh Santangelo
September 19th, 2006 at 12:57 am
I went there a while ago with my mom. She was turned off when the sermon used the term “bloody tampon” repeatedly in the service of some metaphor, the point of which has been forgotten.
Tyler
September 19th, 2006 at 5:23 am
Wow, although I disagree with their theology, I begrudgingly admire their faith. Obviously, they believe in something, and I suppose kids nowadays are looking for it. Myself?-well I’m ok with not having faith in some god but I’m glad they have hope…
nick
September 19th, 2006 at 6:20 am
Great post, Ariel. The rise of Mars Hill scares me, especially the fact that they are trying to reproduce their way to power. Thanks for taking the initiative to delve. The fact that Seattle is the home of the Discovery Institute and Mars Hill just seems wrong.
Lori
September 19th, 2006 at 9:04 am
Ariel, you should submit this to Salon or a local mag. or blog. !!
amy.leblanc
September 19th, 2006 at 10:33 am
no comment on the political/social/gender content at this time (too much to say, but mostly i think “Godcom” is pretty spot on. would jesus approve of use of church funds for fancy lighting and bass?), but indeed: very well written.
Leah
September 19th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
You are brave. I wouldn’t even want to be on the same block as that place.
factbased
September 19th, 2006 at 4:35 pm
Disappointing to find such misogyny here in Seattle, and especially that it’s apparently attracted such numbers. But I’ve also seen pockets of enlightenment deep in the bible belt, so I’m not giving up hope for humanity. Thanks for the description.
mark
September 19th, 2006 at 5:42 pm
Yikes. You’re getting some great Google Ads for this post
helenjane
September 20th, 2006 at 8:16 am
I would think, that as a baby-making creature, I would hold MORE power within an organized religion, not less.
Wouldn’t they want to celebrate and worship my body’s power to grow their necessary fetuses?
It’s confusing to me that they would hold the “keepers of the home” in such low regard. Grrr.
DOUG.
September 20th, 2006 at 11:47 am
Thanks for taking this plunge, Ariel. I’ve ridden by there some Sundays and have been surprised by the “hipsters” I’ve seen loitering outside. Now I’m wondering if they’re merely plants uniformed to entice faithless bicyclists into their mascaraed embrace. But I think I’ll stick to football on Sundays.
Brodie
September 20th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
Posts like this are the reason I continue to read this blog. Great. As a recovering fundy myself, I can visualize all this in great detail. Many of my Seattle area friends sing the ‘praises’ of this church. But your view is probabaly spot on.
A few comments:
-”I had no idea it was so anti-feminist.” - this is sort of missing a point. Much like evolution, the phrase feminist means something totally different to you that it does to them . It is couched in totally different meanings. The EV’s see feminism as this very antagonistic agenda driven evil. They see evolution as ‘man came from monkeys, lets kill God.” Neither is true.
-”Weird. Where did all this money come from if the church-goers are all so young?” - essentially, these churches are “seeds” that are “planted” by much older more established churches. This format is well researched and marketed to sell jesus to people just like the ones you saw there. This marketing is available in boxes, shrinkwrapped and targeted to your own town.
-”… theory I’d ever heard, and everyone was eating it up. Why? Because the packaging is so dang slick and stylish.”
It is far more complicated than that. Really. Many of my friends who turned away from this sort of teaching are now, in their 30’s returning to it in droves. It has to do with packaging, yes, but also a need for structure in a world seen as more and more chaotic. Also, it is a return to roots. (see Emergent Church model) Finally it is a a deep desire to find something sacred, and somehow not see yourself as you saw your folks as a youth.
-”I’m really glad I went, however. I think it’s too easy to just dismiss someone without witnessing what they’re doing first-hand. And I did gain some insight into why Seattleites are flocking to this church” - Good on ya! Too often Ev’s are just dismissed out of hand for being bonkers. (see metafilter) There is something there, and there is something to knowing the arguments both in favor and against.
Again, great work. Thanks for it!
bingo
September 20th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
note that the ballard mars hill church is right next to PATH, a very progressive feminist health organization.
ellen
September 20th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
Well….all I can say is….that is one of the most frightening things I’ve read in a long time.
bec
September 21st, 2006 at 1:06 am
brilliant post. I’m horrified.
Sara - organised religion has fundamental flaws, but it ain’t all like that. Tarring the entirety of Christianity with the Mars Hill brush is like tarring the entirety of leftist thinking with the Stalinist brush.
mw
September 21st, 2006 at 1:02 pm
I sort of was tricked into attending Mars Hill one night. All the moped kids I hung around with at the time were members and they promised some sweet Wendy’s food afterwards. What can I say? I’m a sucker for some good french fries.
Anyway, I was unprepared for how much Mars Hill creeped me the fuck out. Since I was new blood everyone wanted to say hi to me and welcome me. I was encouraged to check out podcast sermons online. I had 9866587 new best friends forever that wanted to make sure I showed up next week. There was singing, there was hand raising, and we were all scolded and told to not have sex before marriage and it’s sad that gay people are such sinners.
I had no idea my friends were members of a cult. They made it sound like a rocking good time. Luckily, I think the Mosquito Fleet moped army branch now has some fresh non-Mars Hill blood. But for awhile there it was a little scary.
Um, the point of this comment was to say thanks for showing Mars Hill as the freaky cult that it is.
Therese, Air's mom
September 21st, 2006 at 1:52 pm
Ariel, this is a great descriptive article and quite an adventure you had! It’s so great that you decided to check it out in person and find out what the deal was/is about this church. Curiosity is a good thing, especially about people who are so different than you are. So good for you and Ariel and Dawn for going and having this experience. I learned something myself by reading your description. All i can say is: OH MY GODDESS!! It’s frightening that this kind of thing is really happening!!
In any case, keep up the good writing and let your curiosity continue to lead you into interesting places!
LOVE ya!
Ariel
September 21st, 2006 at 2:31 pm
Thanks everyone for your comments! This post has been linked heavily, and if you’re interested in reading some of the linkers’ sites, here’s a list:
Seattlest • Joygantic • Intellectual Properties • Jesus Politics • Signposts • Not so soft
lily
September 21st, 2006 at 3:03 pm
i so would’ve burst into flames as soon as i entered that place…
Scott
September 21st, 2006 at 6:16 pm
I always give credit to anyone who’s willing to check things out for themselves… it’s why I love Seattle so much… no light-weight, limp-wristed followers around here. Thing is, that includes the folks AT Mars Hill Church ( yeah, which includes me *grin* ). Thing is, you have to respect folks enough to hear what they believe without turning it into a bunch of sound-bites… or it kind of flies in the face of the very “objectivity” we tend to popularize as blog fodder ( I’m sometimes guilty as well in some tech communities, etc ).
I just keep thinking what kind of impression a fly-on-the-wall would have of our families or friends, if their only sample was one conversation over one ( acknowledged ) very difficult subject? Man I can scarcely get along with my sister myself sometimes, but it doesn’t change the fact that she’s usually right *grin*.
I can think of nothing in this world easier to do than find something negative to use as a reason to dismiss something ( a person, a place… a God )… it’s how most of us get through life avoiding things we don’t want to really understand ( or at least suffer the emotional risk to understand ). Given your penchant for “social-psychology and sociological perspectives”, I’m sure you can relate to the zillion-dollar industry that is mental healthcare in our country alone. Mostly because we don’t ( sometimes can’t ) face realty ( aka. the truth ).
The real challenge is when you start asking yourself about the whole picture. What is this God about anyway? Why the heck would He go to all the trouble to get Himself crucified to say stuff like this? What else did He say and why does He think I should give a crap? I suspect that really close relationships we have ( and I mean both you and I and everyone ) tend to be rooted in getting to know people at that deep… get past the sound-bite level… Ariel & Dawn sound like those kind of friends for you, and that’s cool. Some of us have that kind of friendship with Jesus… and we find Mark a good & faithful steward, not shying away from some of the hardest stuff in the Bible to swallow ( respecting your metaphor ).
Respectfully…
Scott
Alaina Kleinbeck
September 21st, 2006 at 8:22 pm
I read Salon’s article and was a little dumbstruck (read: pissed off out of my mind) myself and I work for a Christian church. A bible-believing, Jesus-loving church.
I want to bash people in the side of the head (in a loving way, of course) that ramble endlessly about what Jesus has to say about this sin and that sin. The Jesus I know sat and listened to people and loved people.
I’m sorry you felt alienated and hated on. If it makes you feel any better, I save my social/political/moral opinions for close conversations and spend my time in public actually talking about the reason I’m Christian. I’ll give you a hint: it has nothing to do with rules.
Jason
September 21st, 2006 at 10:06 pm
“Jesus cum”? Nice bit of respect for other people’s faith.
jcricket
September 22nd, 2006 at 7:45 am
This was a great post Ariel - I too was totally squicked by the Salon article, even though I’m pretty familiar with the whole “emergent church” movement.
The anti-feminist and regressive politics of these places is seriously worrisome. I can see why something like this appeals to disenchanted young Christians. To play devil’s advocate, I think that Seattle’s general disdain for organized religion (and organized anything) leads more people to join places like this. Where else can you gain a built-in community of friends? Where else can you avoid the passive-aggressive, non-RSVPing, what’s in it for me Seattle crowd? And since the “Seattle crowd” already makes organized religion into “them”, you might as well ignore anything (read: feminism, evolution) the “heathens” say.
As a member of an organized, but liberal religion myself (reform Judaism) I can see how this happens. I’m pretty secure in my choices, but I sometimes feel that discussing even the most basic details of religion (”What are you doing this weekend?”, “Going to services”) turns into a complete hush from my non-religious friends. Less so people who have some form of spirituality practice, but still uncomfortable.
I definitely get how people in their 20s and 30s feel that established churches/synagogues are all about social action committees, building funds and serving the older people. Joining an established, liberal church/synagogue does cost money. Many committees inside are already established and you have to “find your own way” to fit in, or change things slowly over time.
So the extremes are have no community “because being part of something, especially a religion, is for losers” and “join a boring church filled with old people and sleepy sermons”. People choose Mars Hill instead
Jouissance
September 22nd, 2006 at 12:36 pm
This was a great read, Ariel. I’ve heard a lot about Mars Hill and it was interesting to read an account of their approach. I’m a devout 25-year-old convert of the liberal-orthodox Christian persuasion (Canadian Anglican, currently sojourning at a Baptist church) and this freaked me the heck out, but didn’t surprise me. The evangelical church teaches some deeply flawed gender doctrine. I’m as surprised as you that Mars Hill preaches it so explicitly and yet remains so popular. I’ll stick to the creeds, the Eucharist, the hymnal, evolution, and feminism, thanks. They all get along just fine, which is much more important to me than fancy lights and booming bass.
Something that always upsets me when I read about the comments these evangelical folks like to make about the importance and blessedness of havin’ all the babies is that they don’t seem to even consider how they might impact those of us who are infertile. What would they think if I, a childless four-years-married woman in grad school, showed up at their church? What assumptions would they make? How would I be treated? I really have to wonder. I guess I’m not “a blessed wife.”
In summary: this stuff makes me want to puke and cry, and, sometimes, turn my back on the whole religion deal. Lord, have mercy upon us.
Heather
September 22nd, 2006 at 1:09 pm
How dare you be blocks from my house and not drop the hell by, girl!
(And yes, this place IS maybe six blocks from my house, and when I have to walk by it, I seem to always think that glaring at it as I pass with the deepest disdain I can muster will have some sort of effect. So far I appear to be ineffectual.)
Dude of feminist origin
September 25th, 2006 at 9:59 am
The face of feminism is changing. Case in point: My Mother. I was raised in a feminist household. As of late, my mother is starting to second guess her convicitons. She feels that feminism has gone from the sensible notion that women are people too to the radical notion that men are and forever will be subhuman. She feels that this is too far. I think the brand of feminism that she is worried about is the same brand that evangelicals are worried about.
Mars Man Aaron
September 25th, 2006 at 10:41 am
We are glad you stopped by! I wish someone had taken the time to at least talk with you, just out of courtesy. I hope you don’t take the fact that we disagree personally. I left a more extensive post on one of your friends pages.
jouissance- I just happened to see your post. I don’t know if you will ever read this, I want to answer your questions.
But first let me say we have many women attending grad school at Mars Hill. God ordains when and where we are born and if we are to have children. While you are not blessed with children, you have been blessed with talent, which is just as marvelous and wonderful. We have support groups for women dealing with infertility just to name one of many.
My wife and I both plan on attending grad school. She is an evolutionary anthropologist BA from stanford, and I don’t think I have seen her happier when she is telling me about something she just learned. God tells me to love my wife, and not only that, but to cultivate her also. That means with the mind she has, it would be a crime for her not to go to Grad School.
We don’t think God wants us to have children at this point, given how chaotic our jobs have been and given what we see our future being. He put us in a time and place where we could be a part of the decision of when we would have children.
To answer your questions:
What would we say if you showed up at Jesus’ church? WELCOME. You don’t have to stay but you would be welcome. We would love to have you and your husband visit, if only to get to know us better.What assumptions would we make? We would assume that you were curious, maybe you are looking for somthing more, or maybe you are just wondering what this place is. That is what we would assume.
How would you be treated? You would be treated as an image bearer of God, because you are.
Simply put, you would be loved because you are you. Not for what you can do, or can’t do. Just for simply being. You don’t have to prove anything to us, you are loved, and you are awesome, because God breathed life into you, and made you in his image. You are blessed but you are just blessed differently than many.
We will pray for you, your grad work, and should it be, your children.
God’s Peace.
Aaron.
yasmin
October 4th, 2006 at 11:59 pm
I’m actually a Christian and new to the area. I tried Mars Hill the same day you did and I was sickened by Driscoll and his comments about feminists. I kept vacilating between wanting to yell at him in the middle of his sermon and wanting to cry. THis is not the Jesus I know or the Jesus in the Bible. But according to Driscoll, if it’s not his way, it’s not biblical!
There are plenty of Christians who don’t look at women like Driscoll does.
BTW, Mars Man Aaron - when you and your wife have kids one day, would you be willing to stay at home, while she went to work? Or she allowed to just get a degree and then not use it?
berean77
October 16th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
As someone who just happened upon this article and the ensuing posts, I must say I find myself scratching my head as to what the following disclaimer, posted as a warning at the bottom of the page, could possibly be construed to actually mean:
Disclaimer: Be constructive. Comments deemed offensive, pointless, or irritating will be deleted. Those posting anonymously are at especially high risk for having derisive comments deleted. If you want to be critical, that’s fine—dialogue is encouraged, trolling is not tolerated.
Seeing what has been written, what else could possibly be “deemed offensive”? The above disclaimer is more a description of the content than a prohibition of it.
I would respect the writer’s views a lot more, had she taken the time to meet and talk to the people at the church. To her, they are still characatures, fitting nicely into the stereotype she had when she walked through the doors.
Ariel
October 24th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
berean, the summary of the disclaimer is basically: I pay money to host this site where I can write whatever I want. You, as a commenter here, cannot write whatever you want. In other words, free-speech means nothing when I’m paying the hosting bill.
Furthermore, I’m closing this post to further comments. I’m leaving pingbacks open, however, so if you’d like to respond to this post, feel free to do so on your own blog and your response should show in this comments thread.